User talk:McJeff/Archive 07
Patrolling Hey. I requested to be a patroller again, so I thought I should let you know. See you around, Mikey Klebbitz (talk) 18:25, November 19, 2012 (UTC) :Thanks. :I'm sorry I didn't tell you some days before. I just thought there was enough time for you to vote. :Now that I'm a patroller, I will try to help if I notice any hackers and vandals an disrespectful users of this fine wiki. :Cheers, Mikey Klebbitz (talk) 12:03, November 25, 2012 (UTC) Myths I know it is policy on this wiki to not have myth related pages and content. Isn't it about time it was written in our policies section? Messi1983 (talk) 22:35, November 19, 2012 (UTC) :I could've sworn I already did that. Oh well. Yes, it is indeed time. I wish someone would adopt GTA Myths Wiki, but they all get angry with us for not wanting myths content here. Jeff (talk| ) 12:28, November 25, 2012 (UTC) ::I swore I saw you did it too, but cannot find it. Messi1983 (talk) 12:12, November 26, 2012 (UTC) :::Well, it's there now. Jeff (talk| ) 16:02, November 26, 2012 (UTC) ::::Cool. I also added a topic on communityboard a few days ago, you may want to check it out. Messi1983 (talk) 21:27, November 26, 2012 (UTC) Myths wiki I saw on the community notice board that you, and other addmins here are in need of someone to manage and adopt the GTA myths wiki. I'm into myths and would be happy to start the process of creating an affiliate wiki dedicated to myths. I'll post an adoption request for the GTA myths wiki on community central. Sasquatch101 (talk) 03:05, November 27, 2012 (UTC) :Awesome! Good luck, and we'll send users your way once you get it up and running. Jeff (talk| ) 03:18, November 27, 2012 (UTC) ::Great then, I look foreward to getting it all set up. 03:29, November 27, 2012 (UTC)Sasquatch101 (talk) ::I've been thinking about the best way to start getting the gta myths wiki going and just noticed that the internet address is "Grand theft auto myths wiki". Apparently wikia can't change the address name to a shorter and slicker "GTA Myths Wiki" so I feel that I should just start from sctatch with a new wiki. I'll withdraw my adoption request at community central and start putting together the new "GTA Myths Wiki" immediately. Thanks Sasquatch101 (talk) 03:45, November 28, 2012 (UTC) :: Myths wiki almost set up I've been working on the GTA Myths Wiki for the past week getting it all ready for the myth hunters here. I should be through organizing the information for the GTA SA myths section sometime this week. If you could get the word out that the myths wiki is done, so people can come over and check it out that would be great. It would be great also if the myths wiki could join the GTA Wiki as an official affiliate site, as I have already made the arrangments with a link to the GTA Wiki on the myths main page. Hope to see you and others at the myth wiki! Sasquatch101 (talk) 05:39, December 5, 2012 (UTC) Re: (Auto) Welcome Hi McJeff, Although I have only just joined the GTA wiki, (from reading the info on GTA IV) I have been around Wikia for a while. I just received the (auto) message to my first edit here. I am currently looking to stay around here for a few months, as the GTA games are keeping my greatly interested, this wiki is proving a very useful resource to help play GTA IV with and it appears there is a bit I can do to help around here. I have been on Wikia since 2009 and an Admin/Crat on another wiki since mid 2010. If this wiki could do with another staff member, I will be happy to help in any way I can. Regards, Attack Rhino (Talk - ) 15:45, December 5, 2012 (UTC) Vandalize Page Hey McJeff some idiot name Yomomma'sgirlyparts just vandlize Carl Johnson page by adding some nasty stuff to it. I also recmend you banned him from this wiki because of his name and thats the violation of the rules in this wiki for having a horrible user name. Cloudkit01 03:47, December 6, 2012 (UTC)Cloudkit 01 :He also deleted all the information in the Blue hell atrical but I reverted his edit. He also created pointless pages about GTA 6 and another gta v protagonist page, both I added the candidates for deletion catagory. Sasquatch101 (talk) 03:52, December 6, 2012 (UTC) ::Very peculiar batch of vandalism, but I've cleaned it up. Thanks for informing. Jeff (talk| ) 12:33, December 6, 2012 (UTC) You're very welcome McJeff. Cloudkit01 (talk) 00:51, December 9, 2012 (UTC) Vandals Hey Jeff. I've told Ilan about this, but as he didn't do it, I'm wondering if you could delete this. And, that's not all of it. A user who just signed up, by the name of IgorTchelzoff has deleted most of Johnny Klebitz's page. And believe me when I say most of it. Happily, when I was about to rollback his edits, I saw Love GTA4 had already done it. Could you please block him for deleting about 5 page topics on a protagonist page? Out, Mikey Klebbitz (talk) 17:55, December 6, 2012 (UTC) :I wrote all of what Sasquatch accidently removed from the good text part. That Yomomma vandal is a brat. Mikey Klebbitz (talk) 17:55, December 6, 2012 (UTC) -And speaking of vandals... ::Based on his subpar mechanics I'd guess that Yomomma was another incarnation of Joshualeverburg. Jeff (talk| ) 18:03, December 6, 2012 (UTC) :::Joshua is a boring grass. Are you gonna take care of Tchelzoff? I forgot to tell you he'd also deleted the categories Mikey Klebbitz (talk) 18:07, December 6, 2012 (UTC) ::::I left Igor a warning and I'll keep a close eye on him. Brand new editors can sometimes make mistakes like deleting stuff and not know how to fix it. Maybe I'm just feeling mellow and tolerant today but I'm giving Igor the benefit of the doubt. He messes up again he's gone though. Jeff (talk| ) 18:09, December 6, 2012 (UTC) ::::Ok, I'll be watching him too. Enjoy being mellow, as long as it doesn't let you down, 'cos if it is true he's new, he could also be a vandal. Later Jeff man,Mikey Klebbitz (talk) 18:19, December 6, 2012 (UTC) :::: What is up, Jeff? The page on the GTA IV Skinheads gang had photos of Jimmy Kand and Marty Boldenow, two of the members. I take it you're not very fond of GTA IV, so just to let you know, both are most wanted criminals. All was fine, but now they don't "work" anymore. Could you fix it? And could you tell me how to do it? As a patroller and I feel like I should do it myself. Only if I knew how to... Mikey Klebbitz (talk) 17:14, December 8, 2012 (UTC) Happy Holidays! Happy holidays and a happy New Year! Boomer8 (talk) 07:22, December 12, 2012 (UTC) Hey Hi McJeff I noticed that a guy created a useless page and I'm asking you to delete it, oh and could you fix the Sharks page? I tried to fix it but I couldn't, the problem is in the gallery, thanks. Anyway Happy Holidays and a Happy New Year to you ;) Istalo (talk) December 16, 2012. FYI Jeff me old mucker(means my old friend), I made a topic on the communityboard a week ago or so, which needs opinions. Check it out. Messi1983 (talk) 19:29, December 20, 2012 (UTC) Request Hi, I don't want to sound annoying or anything but there is a request I made on the promotion requests page and I would like you to close it so that I can make a new request now that I have reached my target of 200 edits. This would be much appreciated. LS11sVaultBoy (talk) 22:01, January 5, 2013 (UTC) No worries, thanks for the welcome. I plan on making a few more edits to the little bits of info which I've noticed that haven't yet been touched on and hopefully it can be of use. I'm a big fan of this site since its wealth of information is something you really can't get anywhere else and it really shows the keen eye that some GTA fans have. It really lets you get behind the fictional establishments which is part of the game's fun in itself. On a side note however, I did want to ask you if it was ok to advertise some GTA inspired clothing which I am planning to begin selling within the next month on this website in the forum section. They're all designs I've made based loosely on various elements within the game and I think that this site can really help get them out there, given the fanbase and the upcoming release of GTA V. Please let me know what you think and I thank you for your time. Keep up the good work and I look forward to helping add on to this awesome wiki! Outfitclothing (talk) 06:48, January 16, 2013 (UTC) Vandals Jeff, man, how is it going? Look, I was patrolling yesterday, and noticed these two wannabe wiki criminals: Lalahannah622 and Pasiondav792. But my browser was damn slow, so I couldn't do anything other than use the rollback function. Hannah has been adding false dates (like 1485) to GTA IV Era characters, the oldest alive being born on 1940, or something like that. Happily though, NATEBURN has notified Ilan about her, and she has been blocked. As for Pasiondav, he's been removing the original vids on mission pages, all from GTASeriesVideos, to add videos in spanish, like if this wiki was indeed spanish. I've taken the liberty to rollback his lousy edits. Thought I'd let you know, Mikey Klebbitz (talk) 17:52, January 18, 2013 (UTC) :Thanks, I'll have a word with Pasiondav. Jeff (talk| ) 21:10, January 18, 2013 (UTC) :Ok, nice. :Out, :Mikey Klebbitz (talk) 14:12, January 19, 2013 (UTC) Wikia Game Guide App Greetings McJeff! Wikia is excited to launch our Game Guides app very soon. The app features access to tens of thousands of wikis and their excellent content. As a popular wiki with a treasure trove of information, we think the GTA wiki would be a great candidate for one the first curated games on the app! But first, we need your help. The Game Guide apps thrives on excellent categorization and a little bit of admin curation. Visit this page to learn more about curating your presense on the Game Guide app: http://preview.mira-test.wikia.com/wiki/Help:GameGuide. If you have any questions or need assistance curating the content for the app, please let me know and I will happily help you organize it. Just leave me a message on my talk page! Best, Jorge (profile)•(talk) 17:52, January 23, 2013 (UTC) :Hey McJeff! Looks like you may have missed this message. Just FYI, I'll go ahead and start curating the Game Guide content on Monday myself. Feel free to chip in though! Jorge (profile)•(talk) 19:05, January 30, 2013 (UTC) Wiki Staff Page Hi McJeff! I thought I'd remind you that you need to add the new Patrollers (including me) to the GTA Wiki Staff Page. Thanks, LS11sVaultBoy (talk) 08:17, January 27, 2013 (UTC) Ok, thanks anyway! :D LS11sVaultBoy (talk) 17:31, January 27, 2013 (UTC) GTA Myths Wiki set up Hey jeff, A while back you and I talked about sending GTA Wiki users who are intrested in myths over to the GTA Myths Wiki once the affiliate wiki is built up. The wiki is very presentable now, so could you get the word ot to the GTA Wiki users who are intrested in myths. I know how the GTA Wiki wants no myth-related content here so the Myths Wiki will fulfil that role. Get back to me as soon as you can. Thanks, Sasquatch101 (talk) 03:18, January 28, 2013 (UTC) Invite Sasquatch101 (talk) 05:12, January 30, 2013 (UTC) GTA Myths Wiki Zombie troll We have a vandal by the Username Zombie... somethiong needs to be done about this user ASAP JBanton (Talk | ) 18:17, February 2, 2013 (UTC) :I see Ilan got to him first, good catch. Jeff (talk| ) 20:10, February 2, 2013 (UTC) Image problem On the category page for GTA V vehicles, the image for the Sports Coupé isn't updating to the current one headlining the article, although it was changed at least six hours ago. Is there just a time delay or is there something wrong? JBanton (Talk | ) 18:52, February 3, 2013 (UTC) It has sorted itself out now, all is well :) JBanton (Talk | ) 21:16, February 3, 2013 (UTC) Made a topic on GTA Wiki Staff talk page. Check it out. Messi1983 (talk) 05:51, February 5, 2013 (UTC) That username... Jeff, how are you? And before you ask, yes, it is about users. While I have nothing against the site in question, everyone sees what they want to, it's not my problem, this user has quite a username: Isthispornhub. He's only made one edit so far, on the Freeway page, which wasn't bad, but his username calls a lot of attention. I don't think he's a bad editor, but that username... Later, Mikey Klebbitz (talk) 14:52, February 5, 2013 (UTC) RE: Promotion Hey Jeff. I'll always be staying cool with people and I actually rarely ever get angry over anything. I understand that I have only been a Patroller a few weeks so I'm fine about that. The last thing is, how do I learn how to be an admin? Patroller Vault Boy (Message Me!) 18:04, February 5, 2013 (UTC) :Dan and I (and Tom if he comes back) have to figure out how we're going to teach people before I can answer that. Jeff (talk| ) 21:23, February 5, 2013 (UTC) RE: Chronology :Whilst this is in discussion, may I point out that I've been setlling a few disputes and calming some situations here, here, here and also here. JBanton (Talk | ) 18:21, February 6, 2013 (UTC) Question Hi, I was playing GTA IV and the Episodes and I was following them in chronological order using the Missions in GTA IV Era page, when I noticed that some of the missions in section 4 for the Ballad of Gay Tony are impossible to complete before Chinese Takeout. Is this a mistake in the list, or am I playing it wrong? I noticed it starts at the mission Sexy Time which requires Chinese Takeout to be completed. Thank you. Niko Bellic4 (talk) 18:34, February 14, 2013 (UTC) :Hi Niko Bellic4, sorry but I don't know, I didn't like GTA4 itself and so I haven't played any of the other GTA4 era games. Jeff (talk| ) 18:37, February 14, 2013 (UTC) :Ok, Thank you for the help I'll try someone else. Niko Bellic4 (talk) 18:38, February 14, 2013 (UTC) Wiki Policy I know that the GTA Wiki policy says myth-related content is prohibited on the wiki, but the Rumours page has myth content all over it. If myth content is on the wiki it defeats the whole purpose of the GTA Wiki's affiliate wiki the GTA Myths Wiki to cover myths which the GTA Wiki does not allow. So with your blessing, could I delete the myth content on that page and put a link to the GTA Myths Wiki for people looking for myths? Let me know what you think. Sasquatch101 (talk) 05:40, February 15, 2013 (UTC) :I took care of the page and added a link to GTA Myths Wiki at the top. Since the page would be awkward and incomprehensive if it didn't mention the myths, and since it's only stating that the ones that gave this wiki trouble (Bigfoot, Epsilon) aren't true, I'm going to leave them. I did change Bigfoot and Piggsy to false from debatable. Jeff (talk| ) 08:52, February 15, 2013 (UTC) :Thanks for clearing that up. Sasquatch101 (talk) 03:44, February 17, 2013 (UTC) :P.S. The new GTA Myths Wiki is at www.gta-myths.com Vandals I think we need a block to be put on User:DynamicInABox and User:Bbionicjive, for using their first edits to deface articles. JBanton (Talk | ) :Both indeffed. Jeff (talk| ) 22:20, February 17, 2013 (UTC) Here is something for you to do haha Hey Jeff, images seem to be more your field on here, so you might want to check out Candidates for deletion. Messi1983 (talk) 10:18, February 20, 2013 (UTC) Me I'm sorry if you feel I lost my temper on the promotion page, but I felt I was being personally attacked. Normally I wouldn't act that way, but I felt that I had to make a stern respose to the false accusations dodo was putting out there. I hope you understand my reasoning. Sasquatch101 (talk) 03:12, February 28, 2013 (UTC) :I understand, and I wasn't trying to take a shot at you. I was just saying that if you're looking to be an admin, keeping cool is important. Jeff (talk| ) 07:13, February 28, 2013 (UTC) Blog I've restored it for reference sake, cause I warned him on it and just incase any trouble from another wiki does happen. I've protected it, so no one else can comment on it. Messi1983 (talk) 03:39, March 2, 2013 (UTC) RE Thanks Jeff, I'm glad that you talk to me. You know, you are kinda cool admin. You what I'm going to do, I'm going to put your name on my Friend and Allias list. P.S. The reason that I made a blog like that because I want you and Staff here put something about me, so I can prove that I'm innocent of those things that I didn't do! Your dispatcher and an informal-imformant, Cloudkit01 (talk) 23:07, March 2, 2013 (UTC)Moe Watterson Bosco Howard Admin request Hello Jeff! Just saw your opinion about GTA IV. You really are keen on Niko, huh? :D I've applied for admin. Couldst thou vote and comment, sir? Thanks! Mikey Klebbitz (talk) 15:57, March 6, 2013 (UTC) :Voted. (Yes). Jeff (talk| ) 07:24, March 8, 2013 (UTC) :Thanks, Jeff! :I recall that day; I would never do that again now. But I think it gave some experience on what not to do. :Here to help you all. :Cheers! :Mikey Klebbitz (talk) 17:07, March 8, 2013 (UTC) Happy Spring Sasquatch101 (talk) 04:19, March 10, 2013 (UTC) Admin Hey man, I hope all is well. I applied to be an admin today. I hope you can stop by and vote for me. Sasquatch101 (talk) 02:17, March 13, 2013 (UTC) Dispute Hey Jeff, how are you? Sasquatch and Dodo8 are kind of in a dispute, ever since Dodo commented some blog posts from a newbie user, some months ago. It started with Dodo not being too sympathetic with Rigby (the newbie user), and Rigby complained to Sasquatch, who complained to Dan, leading to Dan warning Dodo about his aggressive behavior towards both Rigby and Sasquatch: Dodo8 posts comments on Rigby's blog posts-->Rigby complains to Sasquatch-->Sasquatch complains to Dan-->Dan warns Dodo that he should chill off; Well, I think Dodo let it go for a while, but when he applied for admin, Sasquatch voted "No" and commented he wasn't ready for adminship, since an admin needs to be calm with other users (let alone newbies that still haven't figured out how wikis work). What did Dodo do now? Sasquatch applied for admin too, and Dodo commented in a "less-than-proper" way. Sasquatch wanted the b'crats to know. Me and Tony are trying to figure out this situation. Could you help us out? I think we should make them apologize to each other (obvious) I think it's about time that silly fight ended; what about this: *we make them apologize to each other (obvious). If any of them refuses to apologize, I say we block him for a week and remove his patroller rights; *and in a two months time if they ever insult each other again, they will be banned from the wiki. Sorry for writing such a big message. :) But two patrollers, users with special rights fighting does not make any sense. Tell me what you think. Mikey Klebbitz (talk) 15:32, March 17, 2013 (UTC) :That's pretty drastic for a user dispute. I'll take care of this. Jeff (talk| ) 15:44, March 17, 2013 (UTC) :OK. I have already read the measures and I agree with them. :Mikey Klebbitz (talk) 16:56, March 18, 2013 (UTC) Dodo8/Sasquatch101 interaction ban I am officially stating the following. *Dodo8 and Sasquatch101 are banned from commenting on each other's edits or behavior, either directly or indirectly. *Dodo8 and Sasquatch101 are banned from voting on each other's promotion requests *Dodo8 and Sasquatch101 are banned from filing demotion requests against each other. Discussion of this ban should take place in this very thread on my talk page, since this identical message has been left on multiple pages. Jeff (talk| ) 15:51, March 17, 2013 (UTC) :I'm 100% agreed with this. I just added my opinion on that blog post, just like anyone else. I understand my mistakes in the past, but this time it wasn't entirely my fault. After, this, Tony started messaging me and threatening he will report me to an admin. I don't want to fight with him, I just want them to leave me alone. :And yes, I apologize for this. I just hope that Sasquatch will also do it. ''Dodo8'' ''[[User:McJeff|Jeff (talk| ) 16:25, March 17, 2013 (UTC) :::::I cannot remember the last time I barked at newbie. Even if one is wrong and the other is right, arguing is wrong, and two wrongs don't make it right. Either they should discuss it in a civil manner or not at all. Since they cannot seem to do that, then an interaction ban is best until it cools down. I think we should use this ruling from now on for users in heated disputes. Messi1983 (talk) 16:55, March 17, 2013 (UTC) ::::::I agree with the ban, and plus when Dodo insinuates that I only went after him; he is mistaking as Itold both of them that I will report an admin if the dispute gets way out of control. Mr. T. (talk) 21:25, March 17, 2013 (UTC) ::::::I don't want to explain why the way I feel about dodo. Looking at the blog posts, and my admin request, I think anyone can understand my stance. Just for the record I agree with the interaction ban. Sasquatch101 (talk) 03:17, March 18, 2013 (UTC) Haha "Censorship asterisks are not permitted" - Oh really? Well f*ck, opps I meant fuck that then. Seriously, that notice is hilarious. Messi1983 (talk) 16:57, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Sasquatch keeps arguing Ok, this is getting annoying. You told us to stop arguing so I did. But Sasquatch commented about me on the requests page: You deserve to be an admin. Some people like dodo, just are not cut out for the job. Also the way you handled the interaction ban was the best thing, and showed admin qualitys. Good Luck! No comment. He still continues the fight. Can someone just tell him to end it already? ''Dodo8'' '' [[User:Dodo8|''Dodo8'' ''[[User:McJeff|Jeff (talk| ) 18:18, March 18, 2013 (UTC) RE Blocked I have wrongly blocked. I NEVER interacted with dodo until he started starting his shit once again. - You have good edits. I just hope that someday you and Sasquatch will stop threatening me for every comment I add. '' Dodo broke the ban first and I simply threw his lies right back at him. YOU should of blocked both of us if you had to because he once again stated it first and then I get the backlash for responding. I am an exemplary editor here, and to put that block on me has only shamed me for something that is not true. If dodo felt that way he could of commented here on the interaction ban. Instead he aired his dirty laundry and hate towards me and Tony. WHY DO YOU DO THIS TO ME???? I would like to speak to dodo as I have never actually confronted him on this matter on the talk pages. So is the interaction ban over? At this point, if dodo can't get over himself then put us both up for demotion and whoever has the most votes leaves the staff. At the moment this seems like the only solution because it's not just me! Sasquatch101 (talk) 02:12, March 20, 2013 (UTC) :No, the interaction ban is not over. I don't care who said what first, what I care about is that the interaction ban said "don't talk about each other", you acknowledged the interaction ban, and ''two edits later you made a post insulting him. Jeff (talk| ) 02:40, March 20, 2013 (UTC) :::Understood. ''Dodo8'' '' :::: I can't tell if Sasquatch is ranting about Dodo again. As for this [[User talk:Tony 4-2-8-1-9-9-8|message he left me. 4-2-8-1-9-9-8|Mr. T.] (talk) 22:14, March 20, 2013 (UTC) :::::Hi Tony. Sasquatch got blocked for that comment, and I'm trying both to get him stopped before he completely melts down and gets blocked, and to get a timeline of this mess posted so I can see what actually happened. If Mikey can come back from being blocked to become an admin it's not too late for either Dodo or Sasquatch, but as long as tempers are high this is going to get worse not better. I'm trying to figure out exactly who said what and when to deal with this. Jeff (talk| ) 22:18, March 20, 2013 (UTC) :::::::Personally, I feel I started this arrogant conflict. I was thinking to myself that if I was in big trouble, but I contradicted that thought when Sasquatch was ranting about Dodo, again and he telling you about how "I (he) got wrongfully blocked". Mr. T. (talk) 22:35, March 20, 2013 (UTC) ::::::::Dispute resolution is a tricky thing to learn. Messi and I learned how over at Wikipedia where everything is done ultra-formally, plus we've been doing it for 6 years now (where does the time go?). At your experience level I probably wouldn't have done any better than you did. As advice for the future though, instead of threatening to report people to administrators, it's often better to just go straight to the administrators and bureaucrats and let them get things sorted out before it gets out of hand. Jeff (talk| ) 00:41, March 21, 2013 (UTC) ::::::::::I understand Jeff. Unlike Wikipedia, though, Wikis are essentially for anything to include everything. At the time of my admin request and them fighting, I acted like an admin and took matters into my hands to stop this conflict. I must admit, I was harsh at Dodo for saying to Sasquatch "using the admin tool to show off" , useless edits" and saying tirade things at him. I knew the disputes between the two of them before and I assumed that Dodo was trying to get back at Sasquatch as an act of revenge and jealousy since, in fact, they applied for adminship, both started tirade, and failed their requests. My actions bombarded my chances for admin rights, even though I never had a serious problem on the Wiki before. As for you and Dan saying about my "incivilty", thats's the first, thus, I will be more diligent on this Wiki since I am active now and not to take matters into my own hands. I will report to an admin rather to stand in and act like one. As for now, I don't think I will apply for admin rights in a while; they're probably will be taken anyhow. ::::::::::Mr. T. (talk) 01:05, March 21, 2013 (UTC) My opinion on block Jeff, I personally think you should unblock Sasquatch101. Any editor who owns up to and admits their actions and apologises for it is an editor who deserves to be unblocked in my opinion. If you feel he should stay blocked, then so be it. Messi1983 (talk) 06:05, March 21, 2013 (UTC) :No worries. I think it makes sense to unblock users who apologise for their actions, as an apology is admitting their actions and being sincerely sorry about them. The reason why people stay blocked is because they usually deny everything despite evidence in history tabs and through diffs. Messi1983 (talk) 12:19, March 21, 2013 (UTC) What is this? "Good idea. Great place to start is disengaging from him entirely" What is this? You said that I said it on the incivility page. I never said this, if you ask me, I don't even know what disengaging means! Check who made the edit! It wasn't me. ''Dodo8'' '' [[User:Dodo8|''Dodo8'' [[User talk:Dodo8|''